rvl33
I'm thinking of upgrading to a new tire and seeing what recommendations anyone would have.  I'm currently riding a Specialized Diverge Carbon Sport.  Right now I have Specialized brand Sawtooth 38mm tires on it.  I can fit up to 42mm.  I'm riding a mixture of pavement, gravel and hard packed dirt with occasional muddy sections.  Right now I'm riding with tubes and not sure if I should go tubeless.

Also wondering if it makes sense to upgrade to carbon wheels. If so anybody have a preference on which ones I should look at.  I understand the investment involved and would like to be in the $2,500 range.

Thanks for reading.
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tdilf
A decent carbon wheelset should only be about 1K +/- unless you are looking at an Enve wheelset.
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chas
most of the carbon wheels I've seen are close to 2K, unless you have Olritter here make you some for ~1-1.5K.   But he makes some good aluminum rims for half that that are about ~100g heavier.  

If you are riding at your limit and already have some pretty light tires, it can be nice.  

Tubeless is worth it just for the ability to run lower pressure without pinch flats.  But it does require some maintenance (rotating tires and refilling sealant) and in many (but not all) cases can be a bear to mount (see my Conti 5000 review).   Its so easy for anyone with experience to change a tube on a tubed tire.  

Sawtooths are fairly good tires.  Enjoy them and wear them out, unless there is something specific they don't do that you need.  There are ligher faster slicks, or more burly heavy duty tires - Sawtooth is kind of in a sweet spot.
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jfranci3
What year is your Diverge? Is it a SCS rear wheel (135mm rear)?

Does it make sense to get carbon wheels? No. I've tried my 38mm tires on my cheaper Stans Grail wheels and my nicer, wider carbon wheels, things didn't change much.

Does it make sense to get a couple of different wheel/tire combos? Yes. Does it makes sense to get a good wheelset for your  needs? Probably.  I'd put the fancier wheels on the more-road tires. I'd put the stock wheels on the fat, knobby tires.

For good quality, reasonably priced wheels for your needs, DT Swiss and Fulcrum have nice off-the-shelf offerings. For decent quality, low priced Carbon wheels, Light Bicycle has some nice offerings. 3t and bontrager make reasonably priced brandname options.  For other reasons, you've got a lot of options.
Keep in mind a lot of the cost of more expensive carbon rims is the high temp resin, which is not needed for disc applications. With a gravel tire on the bike, the wheel isn’t going to be aero for the most part. 
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BubbaS
Go tubeless, you can run lower pressure and you will reduce the number of flat tires that you get. 

BS
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BubbaS
PS check out Bontragers Aeolus pro 3V wheelset. Should come in just over a grand. I am having no issues with mine. They are light and would be fast if I was fast 😁

BS
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Koyote
The Sawtooth 38mm is a good middle-of-the-road tire, and sets up easily as tubeless. So, going tubeless should be your upgrade.

$2500 carbon wheels will get you marginal gains at major expense.
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spinergypaul
we have a trade in program going on right now on our Carbon Gravel wheelset. 40% off. Your price would end up at $1065.60
http://www.spinergy.com
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clarksonxc
I'll be the contrary opinion on this one.  If you have $2500 to spend, go ahead and get the G23's and know you're riding on the best of the best.  Nothing looks cooler than 3 white Enve logos spinning at high speed!  You only live once
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jfranci3
Are Enve logos dirt shedding?
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clarksonxc
jfranci3 wrote:
Are Enve logos dirt shedding?


Still looking fresh after 306mi of Iowa Gravel!IMG_0812.jpg 
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SWGraveler
I agree; if you have the budget, get all the wheelset you can afford. All carbon rimmed wheelsets are not created equally; people buy and love Enve wheels for a reason. A set of whatever carbon wheels for $1250 that weigh 1600 grams will ride differently than a 1300 gram set of G23's. Depending upon how you ride, it may not mean much to you; if you ride solo at relatively consistent speeds, you may not notice much difference. Don't expect your solo avg speed to increase significantly.. If you ride with groups and respond to others change in pace, you will notice a real difference.

See the review of the Cannondale Topstone on this site and the comments about swapping out the wheels. The Cantu wheels, while they look to be very nice, are still a lot heavier than G23's so the difference would be even more noticeable with G23's.. From what I can discern, the Cantu wheels are basically inexpensive rims built well with nice hubs. Rim weight, not wheel weight is what you can notice..
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jfranci3
Rim weight is all that matters because of the affect on the  moment of inertia. The difference between a decent AL rim and a carbon rim is about 100g (490g vs 390g), you’re adding a 350g tire into the mix. The energy expended to accelerate a 200g of rotating weight with the moment of inertia were talking about here is next to nothing compared to the body as a whole. Once rolling, that weight adds flywheel effect to REDUCE “micro accelerations”, which the equation is once again dominated by the rest of the mass being accelerated. 
What you feel mostly with light wheels is a noticeable loss in centripical force, making the bike feel more lively. 

For 200g, buy the cheaper wheelset or the one with the cooler logos. 
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SWGraveler
jfranci3 wrote:
Rim weight is all that matters because of the affect on the  moment of inertia. The difference between a decent AL rim and a carbon rim is about 100g (490g vs 390g), you’re adding a 350g tire into the mix. The energy expended to accelerate a 200g of rotating weight with the moment of inertia were talking about here is next to nothing compared to the body as a whole. Once rolling, that weight adds flywheel effect to REDUCE “micro accelerations”, which the equation is once again dominated by the rest of the mass being accelerated. 
What you feel mostly with light wheels is a noticeable loss in centripical force, making the bike feel more lively. 

For 200g, buy the cheaper wheelset or the one with the cooler logos. 


Where do I find the form to nominate this for the ironic post of the week? 
I love it when someone tries to espouse factual/scientific sounding knowledge and then uses random numbers and incorrect terminology. Enve G23 rims weigh 330 grams and pretty much any gravel tire of any durability will be significantly heavier than 350 grams.

My assumption is that "centripical" is supposed to be centrifugal?

Less centrifugal force doesn't just make the bike feel more lively; it actually makes the bike more lively and responsive to a given increase in effort.. This is why Pro Tour road riders will add weights to their bikes so they can ride light wheels and still meet the UCI 6.8kg minimum bike weight.. Once it becomes mano/mano on that last climb, the ability to jump often makes the difference.
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jfranci3
SWGraveler wrote:


Where do I find the form to nominate this for the ironic post of the week? 
I love it when someone tries to espouse factual/scientific sounding knowledge and then uses random numbers and incorrect terminology. Enve G23 rims weigh 330 grams and pretty much any gravel tire of any durability will be significantly heavier than 350 grams.

My assumption is that "centripical" is supposed to be centrifugal?

Less centrifugal force doesn't just make the bike feel more lively; it actually makes the bike more lively and responsive to a given increase in effort.. This is why Pro Tour road riders will add weights to their bikes so they can ride light wheels and still meet the UCI 6.8kg minimum bike weight.. Once it becomes mano/mano on that last climb, the ability to jump often makes the difference.


sorry, wrong terms and was using general weights. Tire weight was a 38c GK. Rim was a Stans Grail I own and a LB one I was looking at a while ago.  You’re right, 200gr is going to make a shitload of difference on an equation with 80000gr of rider and equipment.....  


Here's the only meaningful data I've found on the topic -
http://rouesartisanales.over-blog.com/article-15988284.html
Summary - in a huge acceleration 0-20mph in 10sec, 200gr of wheel weight would cost you about 1.2w more power per second (12w total). Note that some heavier wheels spin up easier, this is because they are deeper wheelsets with the weight more inboard (lower moment of inertia).


Wheels are essentially a flywheel. Flywheels smooth out changes in rotational energy - that's what they do https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flywheel . Microaccelerations are bullshit anyway. If you're pedaling so slowly and unsmoothly that you're surging and slowing, the rider's mass is going to dominate the acceleration equation once again. If you're worried about microaccelerations, oval chainrings and lower gears will help far more than any wheel weight difference.
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clarksonxc
Every single pedal stroke is a micro acceleration.  If the flywheel affect had any performance benefit whatsoever, us common folk and the pros would all be out riding on 4000g+ wheelsets.  And the second point in the conclusion of the study you linked to advocates for a set of carbon hoops:

"The second set spins with a carbon rim. We lavish funds saved with the cheap alloy wheels here where the performance benefits are more significant. You get a very light wheelset that will help you save power thanks to the deep rim (aerodynamic) and low inertia.  Pick it from the lead group (from 95 to 115J), or in the first breakaway (sub 95J) if you have the cash. The custom handbuilt wheels are obviously among the best performance/price solutions."

Look, I can't help if you didn't notice any difference between your Stans and LB rims.  I went from a custom HED Belgium+/DT240 wheelset to M50's and the difference is night and day.  I understand some people are more sensitive or perceptive to that than others, but marginal gains add up.  And if the OP is ready to drop $2500 on a bombproof, top of the heap wheelset, I'm going to encourage him to do so.  If you think he's nuts and it's not worth the price that's fine, you are totally entitled to your opinion.

Lots of good info to glean here from GTed:
"Here’s the bottom line- Get these if you want the best money can buy."
http://ridinggravel.com/components/wheels/enve-g23-wheels-at-the-finish/
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jfranci3
Keep believing the hype and not bringing reasonable counter points. Best to worst, you see some signal, otherwise it’s just noise. The micros are too micro to notice in the macro. Again, you’re looking at 200g rotational weight in the scheme of 80000gr. Even on a steep hill with a powerful, light rider  at a low cadence, the micro acceleration is very micro per stroke. Micro * micro is not signal, it’s noise. 
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HollyBoni
Personally I don't really care if light wheels and tyres make me go faster, but they sure make the bike feel a lot more lively and more fun to ride. Whether that's worth $2500 to someone... They can decide for themselves, not my bike and not my $.
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Volsung
Regardless of weight differences and aerodynamic gains, carbon rims can provide a (slightly) more compliant ride and with greater durability and a longer warranty.  The new Light Bicycle rims have a FIVE YEAR warranty.

You could get some MUSA Velocity rims for half the price, but they may dent on the first rim strike and not be tubeless-able after that.
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BubbaS
HollyBoni wrote:
Personally I don't really care if light wheels and tyres make me go faster, but they sure make the bike feel a lot more lively and more fun to ride. Whether that's worth $2500 to someone... They can decide for themselves, not my bike and not my $.


I concur, mine make my bike feel more fun to ride and it is 1/2 pound lighter. More fun means I ride more and enjoy riding more. 

A point about  wheelset prices; 2500 bucks isn't the price point for carbon wheelsets anymore, there are plenty of choice for 1000 bucks US that are well manufactured and safe. My Aeolus Pro 3V ended up being about 1500 Canadian with discs, cassette and taxes. 

BS
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clarksonxc
jfranci3 wrote:
Keep believing the hype and not bringing reasonable counter points. Best to worst, you see some signal, otherwise it’s just noise. The micros are too micro to notice in the macro. Again, you’re looking at 200g rotational weight in the scheme of 80000gr. Even on a steep hill with a powerful, light rider  at a low cadence, the micro acceleration is very micro per stroke. Micro * micro is not signal, it’s noise. 


Keep basing your opinion on a study from 2008 that half the brands listed and tested no longer exist (I wonder why), and tubeless technology was barely in it's infancy.  If you can't feel the effect of spinning up a lighter rim, I can't help you.

As to the other posters, I do agree that there are absolutely arguments to be made on not getting an Enve wheelset, cost being the largest.  There are very good options out there for much less money.  This is a very valid argument, and the OP will need to decide that for himself.  The fact that he came on to this forum with his number leads me to believe he did not want to go that route, but I'll wait for any response he might have before I comment further.
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TonyM
The gain are marginal indeed......But I feel them and you live once.....
Just ordered the new DT Swiss GRC 1400:
https://www.dtswiss.com/en/products/wheels-road/gravel/grc-1400-spline/

I really love these 240 hubs!
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SWGraveler
BubbaS wrote:


I concur, mine make my bike feel more fun to ride and it is 1/2 pound lighter. More fun means I ride more and enjoy riding more. 

Yep; at the end of the day this about fun for all but a very few who are riding professionally. There have been mornings when having a new whatever on my bike caused me to get out of bed instead of hitting the snooze button. Maybe I'm lame that way but it matters to me and I spend my money where I get value as defined by me.

A point about  wheelset prices; 2500 bucks isn't the price point for carbon wheelsets anymore, there are plenty of choice for 1000 bucks US that are well manufactured and safe. My Aeolus Pro 3V ended up being about 1500 Canadian with discs, cassette and taxes. 

True, but this does not mean that a $1250 set of carbon wheels are the same as a $2500 set. I have Aeolus XXX 2's which are really close in weight to G23's and for me were a lot cheaper due to an industry connection.

My other passion is cars; I find it interesting that the choice arguments online are very similar. Yes, a Mustang GT is very fast, certainly fast enough but folks will spend 5X that on a Ferrari (or whatever) that is only marginally faster. In the end, buy what you like, where the value lies for you. What gets old are the implications that those who buy the more expensive option are uninformed/stupid/wasting their money; that is simply not the case, they just see a different value proposition. I see folks spend lots of money on things that I just don't understand at all like pickups that never haul anything or go off pavement..At least cycling gear contributes to being healthy!

R. King



BS
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TonyM
OT:

(...My other passion is cars; I find it interesting that the choice arguments online are very similar. Yes, a Mustang GT is very fast, certainly fast enough but folks will spend 5X that on a Ferrari (or whatever) that is only marginally faster)

In terms of track time and track performance on racetracks there is however no comparison between a Mustang, a 911 or a Ferrari....LOL....Drive yourself and you will feel it and see it in the times.

But on the streets, roads and highways you are definitely right.
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pushstart
Volsung wrote:
Regardless of weight differences and aerodynamic gains, carbon rims can provide a (slightly) more compliant ride and with greater durability and a longer warranty.  The new Light Bicycle rims have a FIVE YEAR warranty.

You could get some MUSA Velocity rims for half the price, but they may dent on the first rim strike and not be tubeless-able after that.


Yeah, after destroying a Stans Grail rim in a race, I switched to carbon (also LB rims).  They weigh less & ride feel is great, are stiffer (I use the 36mm-deep ones for gravel), hookless bead is much tougher than the soft alloy on the Grails, and have been absolutely drama-free with tubeless and trouble free on the trail.  And they cost $154/rim vs. the $105/rim for the alloy Grail.  It's a no brainer.  (I guess that's why I have 4 LB wheelsets on various bikes.)
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