bobknh
The wheels on my new DB Haanjo Comp. are HED Tomcat's. I've been told that these are a less expensive version of the HED Ardennes using pined rims, less expensive hubs, and heavier spokes. The stock tires are tubed Kenda Happy Mediums. There is nothing wrong with this setup, but I've ordered tubeless 40mm Ramblers, Stans rim tape, and Orange Seal sealant to run these wheels tubeless. Today however, I saw a recall on the Canondale Slate- Dale's new entry into the GG market. Dale is advising not to setup their wheels tubeless because of some in the field failures. Does anyone have any experience with running the Tomcats tubeless? Are they reliable and safe?
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fatcharlie
I tried to go tubeless with the Happy Mediums that came with my Haanjo and had a really hard time getting them to seal.  I mounted up a pair of WTB Nano 40's and they worked great (tubeless) with the Tomcat wheels, although I was a little surprised to see the sealant stopping up pinholes in the sidewalls of brand new tires.  I've ridden the Nano's very hard at pressures as low as 40psi with nary a burp, and I'm a pretty big guy.
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bobknh
Thanks for the encouraging feedback. Did you add to, or re-tape the rims? What sealant, and how much did you use? I've already ordered a pair of 40mm Rambler tubeless tires, a roll of Stan's 21mm tape, a pair of tubeless valves and a bottle of Orange Seal Endurance for the job. Any more suggestions or advice would be greatly appreciated.
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fatcharlie
I removed the original rim strip, as it had no adhesive backing.  I put down a layer of Scotch 8898 (same stuff as the big brands but a whole lot cheaper) and Stan's valve stems.  I removed the valve cores and seated them with compressed air, then added 4 ounces of Orange to each and replaced the valve cores.  I aired them up to about 50 psi and spun them around slowly, helping the sealant find its way into obvious leaks.  They lost a little air the first day, but they haven't lost much air in a couple of months.
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fatcharlie
I removed the original rim strip, as it had no adhesive backing.  I put down a layer of Scotch 8898 (same stuff as the big brands but a whole lot cheaper) and Stan's valve stems.  I removed the valve cores and seated them with compressed air, then added 4 ounces of Orange to each and replaced the valve cores.  I aired them up to about 50 psi and spun them around slowly, helping the sealant find its way into obvious leaks.  They lost a little air the first day, but they haven't lost much air in a couple of months.
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bobknh
Thanks. That really helps. Appreciate your feedback and I hope it helps some others on the forum. One comment -- 4 oz. per wheel seems like a lot to put in. I was thinking 2 oz. would do the job. I read an a review of Orange Seal Endurance and Maxxi Rambler's on the Gravel Cyclist site: http://www.gravelcyclist.com/bicycle-tech/review-orange-seal-endurance-formula-tire-sealant/ . They used 2 oz. per wheel , and got very good results. I guess, a lot depends on the type of rider and type of riding you do. And perhaps on how lucky you are.
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fatcharlie
You are right about the quantity of sealant, I use the little Stans injector bottle to put it in and those things hold 2 ounces.
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deepakvrao
bobknh wrote:
Thanks. That really helps. Appreciate your feedback and I hope it helps some others on the forum. One comment -- 4 oz. per wheel seems like a lot to put in. I was thinking 2 oz. would do the job. I read an a review of Orange Seal Endurance and Maxxi Rambler's on the Gravel Cyclist site: http://www.gravelcyclist.com/bicycle-tech/review-orange-seal-endurance-formula-tire-sealant/ . They used 2 oz. per wheel , and got very good results. I guess, a lot depends on the type of rider and type of riding you do. And perhaps on how lucky you are.


Did you go tubeless finally?

I mailed HED, and this was the answer I got:

Hi Deepak,
Tomcat rims are not tubeless ready, they do not have a welded seam. Therefore the seam is not airtight.

Andy Tetmeyer, Repository of Knowledge
Hed Cycling Products
651 653 0202
hedtech@hedcycling.com http://www.hedcycling.com

Though some websites like Jensons say:

Perhaps the crown jewel of this build is the tubeless ready HED Tomcat Disc wheelset

http://www.jensonusa.com/Diamondback-Haanjenn-Comp-Bike-2016

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dangle
That's what tape and sealant is for. Use the 25mm Stans tape and sealant and they will hold air perfectly.

"Tubeless ready" is a vague term that's really not defined in the cycling world. Some say that to refer to a rim without spoke holes. Some just say it hoping more people will buy it. Some are picky enough that if the rim is pinned instead of welded, they won't consider it tubeless ready. Every manufacturer and retailer has a different definition of "tubeless ready" so it really ought to be ignored.

No matter what, it's pretty hard to find a rim that can't be used tubeless if you put in wide enough tape and use sealant. The Tomcat wheels will work just fine.
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deepakvrao
dangle wrote:
That's what tape and sealant is for. Use the 25mm Stans tape and sealant and they will hold air perfectly.

"Tubeless ready" is a vague term that's really not defined in the cycling world. Some say that to refer to a rim without spoke holes. Some just say it hoping more people will buy it. Some are picky enough that if the rim is pinned instead of welded, they won't consider it tubeless ready. Every manufacturer and retailer has a different definition of "tubeless ready" so it really ought to be ignored.

No matter what, it's pretty hard to find a rim that can't be used tubeless if you put in wide enough tape and use sealant. The Tomcat wheels will work just fine.


Thanks. The tyres?

What I was worried is that some places, I have read that using rims which were not designed to be tubeless, would be unsafe, as the tyre could come off the rim?
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dangle
deepakvrao wrote:


Thanks. The tyres?

What I was worried is that some places, I have read that using rims which were not designed to be tubeless, would be unsafe, as the tyre could come off the rim?



Again, there's no industry wide agreed upon standards for tubeless. Everybody makes what they think is right. There aren't really right or wrong rims. ANY clincher rim should be fine tubeless. Put the widest tape in the rim bed that can fit. Bam, it's tubeless. If the tire fits looser than you would like, put more tape in there to "build up" the rim bed. There's also rim strips made for that, but tape is cheaper and lighter. Depending on the tire you use, it may already fit pretty tight. Yes, tires will fit tighter on Stan's rims than WTB. Getting a WTB tire with their "TCS" bead on a Stans or American Classic rim is near impossible without a bead jack and something to lube the rim and tire. Sometimes it's still impossible. Yes, a Specialized tire is going to fit tighter than a Kenda tire. A WTB TCS tire will be even tighter. Honestly, it really doesn't matter for gravel riding. Nobody should be running low enough pressures that burping is an issue (cause it's not a cx race) and running the pressures too high will rattle your teeth out.

The only time I have ever seen a tire come off a rim was because it was pumped up to WAY too high of a pressure. If you get a flat, a tire (set up tubeless AND with sealant) doesn't deflate as fast as a tire with an inner tube. Unless you ride the flat (tubeless) tire and try to corner on it, I don't see how you would have to worry about a tire coming off. If you're talking gravel/cx tires (~35-40mm range) where there's absolutely no reason to ever exceed 50psi (with most being perfect in the 30-45psi range), there should be zero worries of any tire coming off the rim.

I'm finding the threads here to be a pretty rough place for technical info. I would highly recommend checking out forums at mtbr or pinkbike to learn more about tubeless setups. The principals from the mt bike world apply to gravel/cx way more than anything from the road bike world.

Edit: Dustin pointed out that road bike tires that are not tubeless specific should not be used tubeless. I wholeheartedly agree. I didn't think of it before because I wasn't here to talk road tires.
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dgaddis1
dangle wrote:



Again, there's no industry wide agreed upon standards for tubeless. Everybody makes what they think is right. There aren't really right or wrong rims. ANY clincher rim should be fine tubeless. Put the widest tape in the rim bed that can fit. Bam, it's tubeless. If the tire fits looser than you would like, put more tape in there to "build up" the rim bed. There's also rim strips made for that, but tape is cheaper and lighter. Depending on the tire you use, it may already fit pretty tight. Yes, tires will fit tighter on Stan's rims than WTB. Getting a WTB tire with their "TCS" bead on a Stans or American Classic rim is near impossible without a bead jack and something to lube the rim and tire. Sometimes it's still impossible. Yes, a Specialized tire is going to fit tighter than a Kenda tire. A WTB TCS tire will be even tighter. Honestly, it really doesn't matter for gravel riding. Nobody should be running low enough pressures that burping is an issue (cause it's not a cx race) and running the pressures too high will rattle your teeth out.

The only time I have ever seen a tire come off a rim was because it was pumped up to WAY too high of a pressure. If you get a flat, a tire (set up tubeless AND with sealant) doesn't deflate as fast as a tire with an inner tube. Unless you ride the flat (tubeless) tire and try to corner on it, I don't see how you would have to worry about a tire coming off. If you're talking gravel/cx tires (~35-40mm range) where there's absolutely no reason to ever exceed 50psi (with most being perfect in the 30-45psi range), there should be zero worries of any tire coming off the rim.

I'm finding the threads here to be a pretty rough place for technical info. I would highly recommend checking out forums at mtbr or pinkbike to learn more about tubeless setups. The principals from the mt bike world apply to gravel/cx way more than anything from the road bike world.


This isn't all entirely true.

Yes, you can set up almost any rim tubeless, but a tubeless specific rim will have a shelf for the tire bead to sit on, this helps keep the tire in place in the event of a flat, you can get the bike slowed and stopped before the tire comes off the rim. (I put several hundred miles on a ghetto tubeless set up on a MTB, the rim wasn't officially tubeless ready, but it did have the bead shelves)

IMO there's no reason to set up a non-tubeless tire tubeless these days.  For MTBing pretty much everything is tubeless ready now.

For road use a non-tubeless tire WILL blow off the rim if you set it up tubeless.

For mixed surface use the tire pressures are high enough that a blow off is a real possibility with a non-tubeless tire.  I know several folks who've had that exact experience with tires at 35-40psi.  For a while I had 38's on my gravel bike, a non-tubeless Compass Barlow Pass, set up tubeless.  45psi seemed to be the right air pressure for me on the rear wheel, and the few hundred miles I put on the set up was solid with no issues, but, I was never comfortable with it.  Every downhill, especially if it was rough, I had the fear of a blow out in the back of my mind.  I swapped them out for something made to be used tubeless.

You are the one riding the bike, it's your decision what to use.  But in my opinion, (and for me personally) if you're going tubeless, stick with tubeless rims and tires.  Tire setup is also WAY, way, way, way easier when using parts designed for tubeless.
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dangle
dgaddis1 wrote:


This isn't all entirely true.

Yes, you can set up almost any rim tubeless, but a tubeless specific rim will have a shelf for the tire bead to sit on, this helps keep the tire in place in the event of a flat, you can get the bike slowed and stopped before the tire comes off the rim. (I put several hundred miles on a ghetto tubeless set up on a MTB, the rim wasn't officially tubeless ready, but it did have the bead shelves)

IMO there's no reason to set up a non-tubeless tire tubeless these days.  For MTBing pretty much everything is tubeless ready now.

For road use a non-tubeless tire WILL blow off the rim if you set it up tubeless.

For mixed surface use the tire pressures are high enough that a blow off is a real possibility with a non-tubeless tire.  I know several folks who've had that exact experience with tires at 35-40psi.  For a while I had 38's on my gravel bike, a non-tubeless Compass Barlow Pass, set up tubeless.  45psi seemed to be the right air pressure for me on the rear wheel, and the few hundred miles I put on the set up was solid with no issues, but, I was never comfortable with it.  Every downhill, especially if it was rough, I had the fear of a blow out in the back of my mind.  I swapped them out for something made to be used tubeless.

You are the one riding the bike, it's your decision what to use.  But in my opinion, (and for me personally) if you're going tubeless, stick with tubeless rims and tires.  Tire setup is also WAY, way, way, way easier when using parts designed for tubeless.


I wholeheartedly agree with your last statement. The state of tubeless for mt bike, cx, gravel and road is too convoluted to sum up in a couple posts. Using stuff meant to be used tubeless is the best solution. The marketing nonsense, lack of knowledge from local shops and horrible internet forum advice (not from you, I know you know your stuff from VSalon).

Of course non-tubeless road tires will blow off at a certain pressure. I suppose I should have stipulated that here, even though we weren't talking road tires. Good catch. 

I'm still sticking to any rim could be used for tubeless. There's rims that are much better choices than others. A bead shelf is a great thing for tubeless. The bead shelf is not there to keep the tire from falling off the rim though. It's just to match the diameter of the tire and seal, thus securing the tire tightly to the rim. GuitarTed explains it well in another post at http://ridinggravel.forumchitchat.com/post/show_single_post?pid=1292314122&postcount=6&forum=494958. I suppose it keeps the tire on in the sense that if it's sitting on the bead shelf on one end of the wheel, there's not enough 'slack' for the tire to sneak over the top of the rim on the other side. Same principal as needing the entire tire bead to be in the central channel to get tires on and off. I don't know what would guarantee the bead staying on that bead shelf on one end when it's slipped off another end. Usually once you get that initial bead section off, the rest of the tire will move without too much trouble. That little bead hook/barb/lock thing separating the bead shelf from the central channel is to keep the tire in place during low pressure (burps) or potentially during a flat. It is a bit harder getting the tire into the central channel on rims with that feature.

I'm curious about these blowouts thought. I have NEVER seen or heard of it happening with 35-40mm tires at 35-40 psi. I have seen a stretched out non-tubeless specific mt bike tire go at those pressures though...not that it should have been pumped that high. I have handled tires that fit looser than that, so I suppose it could happen even lower on >2.0 inch tires. On the other hand, I have seen people running tubeless on Clements (not tubeless specific and fairly loose beads) and other non-tubeless tires over and over again on a variety of rims at ~50-60psi because they (cough, cough...triathletes) think that's 'low' pressure and they will have too much rolling resistance otherwise. Never heard of or seen one go. Blowouts are serious stuff. You can get messed up if you are too close when that pops off. Or get sealant all over your wife's car. Either way, you're going to get hurt.

Edit: I messed up GT's link.
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deepakvrao
fatcharlie wrote:
I removed the original rim strip, as it had no adhesive backing.  I put down a layer of Scotch 8898 (same stuff as the big brands but a whole lot cheaper) and Stan's valve stems.  I removed the valve cores and seated them with compressed air, then added 4 ounces of Orange to each and replaced the valve cores.  I aired them up to about 50 psi and spun them around slowly, helping the sealant find its way into obvious leaks.  They lost a little air the first day, but they haven't lost much air in a couple of months.


Did the pin joint of the rims leak at first?

I tried to go tubeless on these rims [with tubeless tyres] but tested without the sealant, and found lots of leak at the rim joint.

Don't want to add sealant and make a mess unless I'm reasonably sure it would work.
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dgaddis1
deepakvrao wrote:


Did the pin joint of the rims leak at first?

I tried to go tubeless on these rims [with tubeless tyres] but tested without the sealant, and found lots of leak at the rim joint.

Don't want to add sealant and make a mess unless I'm reasonably sure it would work.


By pin joint do you mean the seam in the rim?  The only reason you would get a leak there is if you had a shoddy tape job.  Here's my recommendations on tape:  http://www.velocipedesalon.com/forum/f40/how-tubeless-rim-tape-install-45115.html
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