ljsmith
3T now has a 9-32 XD Cassette.  I can't believe its taken this long for someone to make one of these.  I am actually shocked that SRAM hasn't moved all their high end cassettes over to XD to take advantage of the 10T cog.  This opens up a lot of possibilities for both 1x and 2x.  There are two versions, on has 9-10-11-12-13-15-17-19-22-26-32 and the other 9-11-12-13-15-17-19-22-25-28-32.  I guess you have to decide where you would prefer the big jump, 9 to 11 or 26 to 32.

https://www.bike-components.de/en/3T/Bailout-Road-11-speed-Cassette-p59559/

[3T-Bailout-Road-11-speed-Cassette-black-9-32-59559-189907-1503587972] 

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drwelby
That 9-11 jump is insane, a 22% increase at that speed range?

I guess the question really is are people going to ignore the inefficiency of those tiny cogs in exchange for the weight savings. Since grams are easier to count than watts I think i know the answer.
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Nbudor
Large jumps are why I went back to 2x. It just didn't feel right.
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ljsmith
drwelby wrote:
That 9-11 jump is insane, a 22% increase at that speed range?

I guess the question really is are people going to ignore the inefficiency of those tiny cogs in exchange for the weight savings. Since grams are easier to count than watts I think i know the answer.


3T actually designed the cassette for their new aero road bike.  It allows them to run 1x, which allows them to drop the front derailleur which created drag.  But hey, I am sure you know whats more efficient, so you should call them and tell them how inefficient their bike will be since apparently they don't know.

My take is that more options are always better.  If you don't like something, just don't buy it. I don't care if someone wants to count grams, watts or whatever.  As long as you are riding your bike and having fun its all good.  These cassettes open up some interesting gearing options, so I am all for them.  I don't want to go back to the days of limited cassette gearing options.  The big jumps are at the ends of the cassettes, if you think about how you ride you don't spend much time there.  They made sure the jumps are very close in the area where you spend your most time, so it makes sense.  If you have ever rode a cassette like this ( I have, the E13 9-46) then you realize it works, regardless of what on paper calculations say.  The "inefficiency of those tiny cogs" does not make you slower.  
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PMC
I like it.  I'd be happy to see SRAM offer a 10/32 that works on the standard XD driver.  Off pavement the 10/42 cassette doesn't bother me nearly as much as it does on pavement but 10/32 would be about perfect as I have virtually no need for a 9t even if I was running a 40T front.  Reading up on this it says it uses the SRAM XD-R driver in one of the articles... Is that different than a standard XD driver?   

Not giving up my 2x anytime soon on the road but we're getting closer.
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drwelby
ljsmith wrote:


3T actually designed the cassette for their new aero road bike.  It allows them to run 1x, which allows them to drop the front derailleur which created drag.  But hey, I am sure you know whats more efficient, so you should call them and tell them how inefficient their bike will be since apparently they don't know.
 


Uh, this snark isn't warranted. It's well established that smaller cogs have higher drivetrain losses. This blog post has a pretty good summation of a couple of cycling-specific studies.

I mean we've had 9 tooth cogs for Moultons for what, 50 years? Even they dropped them for 10s. Shimano has had 9 tooth cogs in the Capreo minivelo group for about 10 years now, yet they haven't bothered to port that technology to their racing groups. Maybe they know something?
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Nbudor
I suppose that if one had a Dt swiss rear hub, and wanted to have that 10t cog, one could probably use One up Shark cluster with Shimano cs hg800 11-34 cassette, thus getting a 10-12-14-17-19-21-23-25-27-30-34. I happen to have such a wheel, but I already spent too much time jerry rigging 46-30 chainrings on Force bb30 cranks in a bsa 68 bottom bracket. I don't have the energy for another drivetrain experiment.
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Volsung
I used to use the 11 on my cassette then I realized it's way easier to coast down hills.

EDIT- I want a 14-32.
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drwelby
Volsung wrote:
EDIT- I want a 14-32.


Start with a Shimano 6800 14-28 junior cassette, swap out the top two carriers from the 11-32?
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Volsung
drwelby wrote:


Start with a Shimano 6800 14-28 junior cassette, swap out the top two carriers from the 11-32?


You, sir, are a hero.
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bnystrom
The other thing that hasn't been mentioned is that tiny cogs wear out much faster.

As for me, I've gone with a 46/30 in front with an 11-32 or 12-32 11-speed cassette (the latter cobbled together with Shimano cogs). I gives me optimal gearing at both the high and low ends with reasonable gaps in the middle. For less demanding rides or general paved-road riding, I can switch to a closer ratio cassette like a 12-25, 12-27 or 12-29. I really don't need the 11, especially off-road.

For my riding style, preferences and the terrain I ride, a 1x simply isn't suitable (I've tried it). While they're all the rage now, I suspect that their popularity will wane once riders use them for a while and realize their limitations.

FWIW, I've stayed with 2x on my MTBs too and ride a 50/34 with a 13-26 cassette on my road bikes.
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Mudge
ljsmith wrote:


3T actually designed the cassette for their new aero road bike.  It allows them to run 1x, which allows them to drop the front derailleur which created drag.  But hey, I am sure you know whats more efficient, so you should call them and tell them how inefficient their bike will be since apparently they don't know.

If you have ever rode a cassette like this ( I have, the E13 9-46) then you realize it works, regardless of what on paper calculations say.  The "inefficiency of those tiny cogs" does not make you slower.  


The drag created by the FD is minimal, the effect of which has been studied to death by aero engineers/TT specialists.  Any drag savings will be more than offset by inefficiency of the crazy small cog.  This, too, has been studied to death.  The folks at Friction Facts/Ceramic Speed have the data if you need it.  

A 1x system on a road bike (particularly a TT bike) can make sense from a wattage/drag perspective primarily if you're riding relatively flat terrain so that you can run a monster front ring combined with a normal 11t small cog.  Running a 9T cog combined with a ring that'll give you a 'normal' top gear for the road doesn't buy you anything but simplicity of the system and slight weight savings.  You can get away w/ a 10T cog on an mtb because you'll almost never use it.  Not the same scenario when you're talking pros on road bikes.

It's a solution in search of a problem, and it will create more problems than it solves, IMO.
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bnystrom
Agreed. Designing a road bike so that it cannot accept a front derailleur is probably a big mistake, as it severely limits the market for it. Perhaps they'll sell enough to cover the cost of the development and tooling...eventually. Time will tell.

This decision is even more perplexing when you consider that his other recent designs, the 3T Exploro and the Open UP both have the capability of using a front derailleur and 2x crankset, and they're gravel/off-road designs, a market where 1x systems are widely accepted. Go figure.
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ljsmith
I just picked up the 3T bailout cassette from Excel Sports for $242.  Why do I want this you might ask.  First off my gravel bike is 1x, I love 1x for offroad so a front derailleur is not going to be on the bike ever.  I currently use a 38t chainring with a 10-42 Sram cassette.  Works great a for all around riding.  However I am going to be riding the entire C&O canal next month (184 miles).  It is pretty flat for the most part and while doing some training rides I have found that I spend about 90% of the ride is either the 14 or 16 cog.  Ideally I want to have some closer spaced gears, so I picked up the bailout and will be running a 32t up front.  This will keep me in the 12-13-15 range of the cassette, which will make it easy to keep at a good cadence.  Even with the 32t up front, the 9t cog in back should give me all the top end I will need for this ride.  The 32t bailout cog probably won't be used, but I will be staying in Harpers Ferry on the ride, and I believe I'll have to ride up a pretty big hill there, so it might come in handy there.  I just got it today. The first dissapointment was to see that the actual cassette is not the same as the prototype.  The prototype actually won some design award, but I suppose it was too difficult or expensive to make.  The actual cassette is made by E13, so instead of the prototype's 1 piece design it is 2 piece like E13 cassettes.  I have a 9-46 E13 cassette, and its okay, the shifting quality is not as good as SRAM or Shimano.  The weight of the cassette is 217g, so its pretty light.  I'll get it mounted up tonight and try to get some miles on it this week to see how it shifts.

3T 2.jpg 
3T 1.jpg 
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Skldmark
ljsmith wrote:
I just picked up the 3T bailout cassette from Excel Sports for $242.  Why do I want this you might ask.  First off my gravel bike is 1x, I love 1x for offroad so a front derailleur is not going to be on the bike ever.  I currently use a 38t chainring with a 10-42 Sram cassette.  Works great a for all around riding.  However I am going to be riding the entire C&O canal next month (184 miles).  It is pretty flat for the most part and while doing some training rides I have found that I spend about 90% of the ride is either the 14 or 16 cog.  Ideally I want to have some closer spaced gears, so I picked up the bailout and will be running a 32t up front.  This will keep me in the 12-13-15 range of the cassette, which will make it easy to keep at a good cadence.  Even with the 32t up front, the 9t cog in back should give me all the top end I will need for this ride.  The 32t bailout cog probably won't be used, but I will be staying in Harpers Ferry on the ride, and I believe I'll have to ride up a pretty big hill there, so it might come in handy there.  I just got it today. The first dissapointment was to see that the actual cassette is not the same as the prototype.  The prototype actually won some design award, but I suppose it was too difficult or expensive to make.  The actual cassette is made by E13, so instead of the prototype's 1 piece design it is 2 piece like E13 cassettes.  I have a 9-46 E13 cassette, and its okay, the shifting quality is not as good as SRAM or Shimano.  The weight of the cassette is 217g, so its pretty light.  I'll get it mounted up tonight and try to get some miles on it this week to see how it shifts.

3T 2.jpg 
3T 1.jpg 
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Skldmark
Huh, What?
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